Forums - top tier in Japan [MVC2] Show all 106 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- top tier in Japan [MVC2] (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=10589) Posted by white on 04:04:2001 01:15 PM: The top characters are frequently changing. Someone think Cable is the strongest, or someone said Storm is the best. So many men, so many minds. I would like to let you know circumstance of the competition in Japan. Top tier [IMO] #1 Sentinel #2 Iron man #3 Spiral #4 Strider #5 Black heart #6 Dhalsim #7 Storm #8 Dr.Doom #9 Cyclops #10 Magneto #11 War machine #12 Cable #13 Morrigan Explanation Sentinel: I think the best character is Sentinel. Spiral/Sentinel/CapCom team is one of the best teams. He has some hard character, but CapCom-beta assist unable him to beat them and great trap with Spiral-alpha assist is much better than that with BH-beta. Moreover Sentinel-ganma assist strengthen the Spiral's knife trap. Iron man: He is #2. Japanese good Ironman player can start infinite combos from any situation. If he wins a mind game, he can kill a character and aim to kill next character with guard break infinite combo. His various moves make the opportunity for infinite combos. DHC into proton cannon is provide his team deadly combo. He is good at close fight and also can keep away. Spiral: Need not to explain. Strider: His health is too bad, but he has best trap. Black heart: Japanese great player [ChiQ Sodom] use him so well. His team BH/Anakaris/Sonson is wonderful! Dhalsim: He has great capability. You will see him in B5. Storm: Need not to explain. Dr.Doom: Need not to explain. Cyclops: Need not to explain. Magneto: He is not good at keep away game. Rush down and combos are good. War machine: Similar to Iron man. But Iron man is better. Cable: He has many weak points. First, he have too many hard characters. Second, his mobility is too bad. Third, he need many HC meter to kill the opponents. He is good at only keep away fight. Morrigan: She have good mobility, ability to break guard, deady HC. She is much stronger than you think. Posted by Yarouze on 04:04:2001 01:21 PM: well thats a very interesting top tier, it shows the differentials in american/japanese play I would love to see someone use Morrigan/Dhalsim really well, I hope to have an oppourtunity at B5 to watch them. And also GQ Sodom's BH/Anakaris/Son-Son will be very interesting to watch, I guess that makes my Charlie/Cable/Doom look really dull, but I guess my Charlie/BH/Doom is a lil interesting? Posted by Joe Darque on 04:04:2001 01:41 PM: ive known that Morrigan was good ever since i used her in MvC1 along with War Machine who was top teir in that game. now shes back with him this time tagging along with them is either Blackheart or Sentinel. i also use her in my Akuma/Morrigan/Blackheart team which is properly named BY DEMONS BE DRIVEN. [starts listening to PanterA] Posted by FallenAngel on 04:04:2001 02:53 PM: BH-Anakaris-SonSon? Can you explain how this team plays? I couldn't find a way to play a decent SonSon in this game, so it would be interesting to know how you play her. thanks FallenAngel Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:04:2001 04:41 PM: quote: Originally posted by white The top characters are frequently changing. Someone think Cable is the strongest, or someone said Storm is the best. So many men, so many minds. I would like to let you know circumstance of the competition in Japan. Top tier [IMO] #1 Sentinel #2 Iron man #3 Spiral #4 Strider #5 Black heart #6 Dhalsim #7 Storm #8 Dr.Doom #9 Cyclops #10 Magneto #11 War machine #12 Cable #13 Morrigan Just to satisfy my own personal curiousity, what are typical Dhalsim teams? Also, what about Storm teams? Posted by Kirkster on 04:04:2001 06:07 PM: Morrigan?!? How can she effectively be used to counter keepaway chacaters? i mean her dashes aren't fast anf her supers aren't that safe at all..how exactly do u play her? Posted by 3pwood on 04:04:2001 06:10 PM: quote: Originally posted by white Iron man: He is #2. Japanese good Ironman player can start infinite combos from any situation. If he wins a mind game, he can kill a character and aim to kill next character with guard break infinite combo. His various moves make the opportunity for infinite combos. DHC into proton cannon is provide his team deadly combo. He is good at close fight and also can keep away. I know a few, but I would be interested to hear about all the IM infinite setups. -Threepwood Posted by DrunkinB on 04:04:2001 06:22 PM: Interesting on the Japan tiering! Posted by Insomnia on 04:04:2001 06:25 PM: there's a couple good iron man players over here, including one named scott a. who can set up the infinite from many situations, but he's not in our top tier. same with war machine dhalsim is not top-tier over here because of how completely the captain commando assist annihilates him there are a couple players trying to become effective with morrigan, most notably jay "viscant" snyder, but we believe she will never be top tier we put cyclops at the bottom of the top tier because of his lack of offensive options. we also rank magneto much higher than you did other than that, your rankings are very similar to ours. thank you for posting Posted by WHOCares? on 04:04:2001 06:26 PM: Hmm, seeing that Morri is on this list, what are the teams that she is most likely to be seen & how exactly is she played over there! I know Cyke, Doom, & BH make good partners for her but... Posted by CgHuReInS on 04:04:2001 07:08 PM: I'm really looking forward to B5 if the Japanese players will be able to show us good strats for some of these lesser used characters in the US... Posted by manny on 04:04:2001 07:41 PM: Very interesting tier lists. I see the Japanese really like Ironman...I think he should be tp-tier over here too. Posted by MarkyMark on 04:04:2001 08:09 PM: I knew Spiral/Sentinel/CapCom was great . Posted by War Machine on 04:04:2001 08:13 PM: Iron Man above Strider? Uh... Posted by Cpt.Cat on 04:04:2001 08:14 PM: You people are dumd asses ... MVC2 Jap is the same as MvC2 English version. . . What a waste of a thread.... Posted by TimeFlip on 04:04:2001 08:19 PM: Morrigan has a forward air dash and a backwards airdash so that makes her useful. Surprised not to see Anakaris as he is used by Joo Posted by BarrelO on 04:04:2001 08:46 PM: Morrigan better than Iceman? Juggernaut? Mega Man? Ruby Heart? Silver Samurai? Omega Red? Colossus? Now I definitely want to know how they play MvC2 in Japan. Posted by Jin Rules! on 04:04:2001 08:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by BarrelO Morrigan better than Iceman? Juggernaut? Mega Man? Ruby Heart? Silver Samurai? Omega Red? Colossus? Now I definitely want to know how they play MvC2 in Japan. Badly..... Heh just kidding, but I doubt that people using IM/Dhalsim/Morrigan will win at B5 Posted by TimeFlip on 04:04:2001 08:54 PM: I'm thinking they jump in with morrigan, sk+blackheart aaa, sk, airdash back then soul fist, land and rush in with a ducking jp or something. My theory though. Posted by Jinmaster on 04:04:2001 08:55 PM: Cpt.Cat, Unless you are joking, you are an idiot. Japanese tiers are different than US tiers based on beliefs that certain characters are better than others. It has nothing to do with differences between the two versions. If you were kidding then my apologies. Posted by LiquiTed on 04:04:2001 10:05 PM: White... thank you for the post , it is very interesting to hear the differences (and similarities) between US and Japan players. As has been mentioned before , I would very much like to read the rationale behind Dhalsim and Morrigan placement . I have observed a few Dhalsim players (noteably as anti-Storm) and an occational Morrigan (for anti-air assist) but nothing else beyond this . I am surprised that MegaMan was not placed...I remember reading several months ago that MM was upper tier in Japan (was this true earlier ?) Please elaborate if possible and again thanks for the post Ted Posted by Optiks on 04:04:2001 10:13 PM: White is a member of Team Japan. He's telling us a firsthand account of the MvC2 scene in Japan. They play the same game differently than we do. Who's the dumb ass? :P Posted by LastGod VT on 04:04:2001 10:22 PM: Wow, very interesting indeed. I cant wait to see how the Japanese players will come up against USA this time. Oh and WHite, please excuse some of our stupid posters (cpt. cap) He is just a confused little boy, pay no attention to him. He is the equivalent of Baka over there. Posted by gilley on 04:04:2001 11:08 PM: I have no problems with that ranking. I always said that Ironman is top tier. He's such a versitile character and if you know a bunch of setups for the infinite he's deadly. Posted by BlackShinobi on 04:04:2001 11:42 PM: I know that all of the non american top tier characters you listed are good, but how did Magneto end up so far down the list? I am seriously in need of more iron man infinite setups. please help Posted by cheese_master on 04:05:2001 12:32 AM: I agree that with some the characters and the way they ranked them. I can see Sentinel as being one of the and if not the most powerful character when played well... an example... Alex Valle winning the recent tourny with Sentinel, CapCom, and Blackheart. Ironman is ranked pretty high in my opinion... but then again what he says can very well be true... so I wouldn't doubt the fact that the infinite can be set up if Iron Man lands one attack. Spiral... yeah yeah... everyone knows why this works. Strider... trap Blackheart... infinite... but... one must play him very carefully against Magneto, Storm, and Cable. Dhalsim??? He's a good mix of Storm and Strider... he's got Storm's runaway, with Strider's rushdown and can potentially start a pseudo Doom trap and a great mash throw... but his vitality is very low and he again needs to be played perfectly in order to win. Still he had problem with CapCom, Psylocke, and any other AAA with a lot of invincibility frames. Storm... in mine and Viscant's opinion the best character. Dr. Doom... argubly one of the best one on one... but again this is a team game and I don't think he can handle Storm, Magneto, Spiral.... Sentinel, and one stray photon shot can let Ironman set up his infinite on him... he again has too many weaknesses to be ranked this high... he does have a great assist to make up for that. Cyclops... I guess he's alright. Mag... should be way higher... just cuz his triangle jumps and wave dashes make him insane... trust me when I say he is a rushdown person's dream. His regular air combo string of 1, 4, 1, 4, 2, 5... does plenty of damage. His magnetic tempest combos should be used if the opposition cannot mash out of it. WM... should not be here. Cable... many weaknesses.... but is the number one mistake punisher in the game. He is still a lot more a formidible force than 12th. Morrigan... whatever... unless I here of a practical strat for her. I mean she's good but... Cable and AAA will tear her to pieces... I mean in that case I think Marrow top tier because she has some great traps and space limiting possibilities as well as battery capabilities. But she will get crushed by Cable and AAA teams. Many characters would be in the top tier if it weren't for Cable + AAA... so I have to find out why she is here. Thats my thoughts on this ranking list Posted by PsionicTempest on 04:05:2001 01:41 AM: Interesting indeed. Ironman has many setups, and he can also do it off of a normal s.roundhouse launch, a character w/ alot of un-exploited + unexplored strengths. Sentinel is kind of 'iffy'. He is no doubt top 5, but BIG, bold NUMBER 1 ? Anyway their tier is great to know. Late | PT Posted by BrazilionBH on 04:05:2001 03:44 AM: How can you say that cable beats all and thats the truth i dont know about those japenese players... Posted by DrewSpiegel on 04:05:2001 04:13 AM: Forgive me all, but I am absolutely narrowminded when it comes to seeing Dhalsim higher than Storm. Given he can get out of lockdowns, I can't see much more being done with him. And Morrigan too, I thought T-Chan was the only supporter, i'm shocked yet again. I can't see her doing much either. Unless she has the right assists but even then I feel that she isn't really doing much. Posted by Shuzer on 04:05:2001 04:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Just to satisfy my own personal curiousity, what are typical Dhalsim teams? Also, what about Storm teams? I remember white talking about Dhalsim before, and I believe his team for Dhalsim was Sim/Spiral/Cyke? or was it Commando? Don't remember anything about Storm. Posted by doombh on 04:05:2001 04:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Cat You people are dumd asses ... MVC2 Jap is the same as MvC2 English version. . . What a waste of a thread.... ma, you don't no jack about anything here. The american top tier(storm,strider,sentinel,doom,magneto,spiral,ca ble,bh,cyclops) are the characters that the best american players use because they think these are the best in the game. The japanese top tier are the characters used by the top japanese players. Of course they are different, even at the same game, because each country discover different things and styles. It's really hard to not flame you, but when you came in front of players knowed around teh world like white saying such scrub things you're asking for someone to do it. Pay attention! Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:05:2001 04:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by Shuzer I remember white talking about Dhalsim before, and I believe his team for Dhalsim was Sim/Spiral/Cyke? or was it Commando? Don't remember anything about Storm. I remember hearing about Dhalsim/Cable/Cyclops a while ago. I was still wondering if the team hadn't changed any and also what they were doing with Storm that makes her seem so low. Posted by white on 04:05:2001 05:56 AM: OK, I will give the details of this ranking. Ironman: He is god of infinite. Maybe we Japanese know more setups for infinite. The end of infinite, he connect proton cannon for 90-100%. the setups #1 C.LK> C.MP> SJ.(LP> air dash LP> upper HP)> NJ.(LP> MP> MK> uHP) *10> S.HP> ProtonCannon #2 call assist(Psylock, CapCom or Cyclops)> NJ.(LK> MP> MK> uHP) >NJ.......> S.HP> PC #3 Cyc-antiair hit> SJ.(HP> air dash LP> uHP)> NJ.....> S.HP> PC #4 J.uHP> (guard break)NJ......> S.HP> PC These setups is basic parts. #1 is most usefull. #2, If the opponent is crouching, the infinite start from J.LK which can hit crouching motion then connect to antiair assist and kill. #3 is quite difficult, but this combo is important for him. #4 is guard break combo. When kill the opponent with those infinite he gets a chance to kill the next character. Whether guard or hit, he can go into infinite combo. His knee(J.down HK) is a trick move. Super jump then over the opponent, knee cancel air dash and calling assist can confuse and if Cyc or Psylock antiair assist hit, He can go infinite. Smart bomb is one of the greatest check moves in this game. Bombs and J.HP make him tight character indeed. His various move and deadly combos let him be a top character. Dhalsim: Well, he is very complicated. Maybe his best team is Dhalsim/Ironman/Cyclops or Dhalsim/Sentinel/CapCom. The abilities (rushdown, keepaway, runaway, comboskill, experiences) are necessary for us to deal with him. I have been using him since 4 months ago. Dhalsim can beat Cable, Blackheart, Storm, Magneto and so on. CapCom antiair is one of counter weapons against him, but I'm sure it is not serious problem. He has a weapon for them. Anyway, I can't express his all strong points. I'm eager to show you his tactic on movie. Seeing is believing. Storm: She is all rounder, but why I didn't rank her so high is just above characters are better than her. I know other player think Storm is higher than I ranked. Well I got tired. I will type following reply later thank you for replies Posted by LastGod VT on 04:05:2001 06:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by white Anyway, I can't express his all strong points. I'm eager to show you his tactic on movie. Seeing is believing. OMG... I can't wait!! I can hardly contain myself. Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:05:2001 06:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by white OK, I will give the details of this ranking. Ironman: He is god of infinite. Maybe we Japanese know more setups for infinite. The end of infinite, he connect proton cannon for 90-100%. the setups #1 C.LK> C.MP> SJ.(LP> air dash LP> upper HP)> NJ.(LP> MP> MK> uHP) *10> S.HP> ProtonCannon #2 call assist(Psylock, CapCom or Cyclops)> NJ.(LK> MP> MK> uHP) >NJ.......> S.HP> PC #3 Cyc-antiair hit> SJ.(HP> air dash LP> uHP)> NJ.....> S.HP> PC #4 J.uHP> (guard break)NJ......> S.HP> PC These setups is basic parts. #1 is most usefull. #2, If the opponent is crouching, the infinite start from J.LK which can hit crouching motion then connect to antiair assist and kill. #3 is quite difficult, but this combo is important for him. #4 is guard break combo. When kill the opponent with those infinite he gets a chance to kill the next character. Whether guard or hit, he can go into infinite combo. His knee(J.down HK) is a trick move. Super jump then over the opponent, knee cancel air dash and calling assist can confuse and if Cyc or Psylock antiair assist hit, He can go infinite. Smart bomb is one of the greatest check moves in this game. Bombs and J.HP make him tight character indeed. His various move and deadly combos let him be a top character. Dhalsim: Well, he is very complicated. Maybe his best team is Dhalsim/Ironman/Cyclops or Dhalsim/Sentinel/CapCom. The abilities (rushdown, keepaway, runaway, comboskill, experiences) are necessary for us to deal with him. I have been using him since 4 months ago. Dhalsim can beat Cable, Blackheart, Storm, Magneto and so on. CapCom antiair is one of counter weapons against him, but I'm sure it is not serious problem. He has a weapon for them. Anyway, I can't express his all strong points. I'm eager to show you his tactic on movie. Seeing is believing. Storm: She is all rounder, but why I didn't rank her so high is just above characters are better than her. I know other player think Storm is higher than I ranked. Well I got tired. I will type following reply later thank you for replies Thank you for your reply and I look forward to seeing movies of Dhalsim and Iron man. Also, look for movies of Magneto on here in a bit, as there was a lot of Magneto at the last SHGL tourney. There are a lot of things on there that I can't really comment on, it just has to be seen. Should be coming soon though. Posted by DrewSpiegel on 04:05:2001 06:25 AM: I'd love to see it! Lots of people can set up the Iron Man infinite here. It's nothing new. I'm still having a hard time seeing Dhalsim owning over Storm, Magneto, Cable, ect,ect Posted by Kirkster on 04:05:2001 07:05 AM: yeah i would love to see dhalsim match up against Mags or storm... Posted by draizen on 04:05:2001 08:59 AM: Thanks for the post white. Very interesting indeed. I look forward to watching the Japanese players play at B5. Later, [ d r a i z e n ] Posted by HyperViperSniper on 04:05:2001 09:30 AM: Great post and all your characters are pretty much top tier over here except Ironman..Dhalsim..WM and Morrigan.. I have to say..all of that sounds okay except Morrigan.. Barrel0 is right... Juggs?? Iceman??? Ruby Heart??? there are alot better capcom characters next to morrigan..she has NO Chip ability..and bad priority.. Who knows..maybe you guys have found a use for her.. Over here she gets consistantly tore to pieces.. HVS Posted by white on 04:05:2001 09:36 AM: Blackheart: ChiQ's team Blackheart/Anakaris/Sonson is very good. When His Blackheart jump to opponents, he challengee mind game. If opponent is standing, Anakaris-beta assist glab, or If struggle, Sonson antiair assist hits. Then go into infinite combo and change to Anakaris, C.HP> SJ.(LP> LK> Cobra super) combo for 100%! In my opinion, Cyclops is better than Sonson, but he hard feeling against Sonson. Anyway, his BH team is different from the others. Magneto: Many people use him since 1 years ago, and I am used to fighting against him. Usually I am rarely beaten by Magneto team. But He have deadly combos and great mobility, He is still a great character. Cable: Actually, many of Japanese top player use him. But I take countermeasure for him and beat many Cable. "Cable is no longer best character" is theory between top players. Concrete example, he is beaten by Sentinel, Ironman, Spiral, Strider, BH, Dhalsim, Storm, Magneto, War machine, etc. Only AHVB is a threat. Morrigan: She is not recognized in top tier, but I'm sure she is top tier. Her basic style is "calling assist and shower fireball and run after it". Then aim to set assist combo from J.LP or C.LK and connect to darkness illusion for 60%. Then DHC into other HC, She can kill opponent in 2 or 3 meter. Darkness illusion and soul eraser are great for DHC. She can make many opportunities for big combo. Other good characters and conclusion: Megaman, Ruby, Samurai, Iceman, Hulk, Anakaris, they are good character and there are many other good assist characters in MVC2. The gap between top and bottom is not so deep. I think over 40 characters have a value to be use in tournament. What I want to say is "Many practice make every person victor!" Thank you for reading my post. Posted by Fraptree on 04:05:2001 09:41 AM: YES!!! Movies with Dhalism and Morrigan (if possible) I've used Dhalism since SF II. I would love to see some butt-kicking with him. Posted by Fraptree on 04:05:2001 09:47 AM: WHITE.. Oh yeah. Thanks for restoring my Faith in Dhalism. Posted by [bllsht] on 04:05:2001 10:43 AM: never knew jap. ppl can use so many characters in 2rny's Posted by dj-b13 on 04:05:2001 11:22 AM: wow...interesting top-tier white ...well the explanations were cool 2 ... Posted by CykoClops on 04:05:2001 11:26 AM: i heard that in japan they consider Blackheart as GOD! like i mean they think he is the best character! Posted by The Man on 04:05:2001 12:25 PM: Sounds pretty cool. I didn't start using Dhalsim till recently, in Capcom vs SNK. I really like Dhalsim, but I have serious problems using him in MvC2. Maybe seeing it on video will shed some light on how he should be used in that game. Other than that, the only problem I had was, were those IM combos starting the infinite from super jumping? If so, does that mean you can start it off his regular launcher? Maybe I'm just confused. I started using IM recently too. I got his infinite down real well, just have problems with some of the setups. I also don't get how to guard break into it. I have to say though, just from the little bit I've played as IM, I could say he'd be one mean bastard like White is talking about. He could tear you up for just getting simple little Lk in. Anyways, thanks for the comments White. It's cool to see someone from the Japanese side posting some stuff. Thanks for the info. Posted by Kirkster on 04:05:2001 02:06 PM: there are many ways to setup iron,an's infinites...apart from assists like Psylocke and Ruby Heart's AAA,he could do it on his own.One way is..triangle jump with with lk,u+hk....then u juz jump and get into the infinite....the lk and u+hk are all in the air before you land..hope that helps.. Posted by Bruton on 04:05:2001 02:55 PM: I play a fair bit of IM, so I know most of his infinite setups: Psylocke, infinite. WM Repulsor blast(combo from or just before a C.LK, C.MP-can do jump-in before and then call), infinite Doom-B, infinite(I have a hard time on this one). Lots of helpers, anyway. His solo setups are quite a few, too... That setup on the James Chen videos-combo in corner, LP.Unibeam, infinite. J.LK, J.RK(best against tall characters, can use helpers to set them up like this, too), infinite In corner, launcher(can use C.MP to set them higher if desired), SJ.LP, SJ.LK, SJ.MK, SJ.T.FP, SJ.D.RK, infinite. Some timing to it, not that hard. You can apparently combo the infinite from a straight launch, but this is much harder. You have to apparently hit with a SJ.T.FP and then dash down, sort of like Magneto's SJ.RK XX dash. Magneto's is a lot easier, trust me. There are probably HEAPS more. I can set it up from an Iceman beam assist on my Dreamcast. Hulk apparently does it nice. Lots and lots of ways. =D I play a very mean IM, but I still had lots of trouble against the top tier in CA. I didn't know the infinite then, but still. One problem is his super is fairly slow to start, if you want to DHC out but not comboing. I ALMOST like Iceman better because his assist is better and he has the quick air super(though is less mobile with a worse DHC super) -Bruton -Bruton Posted by doombh on 04:05:2001 03:00 PM: Nice posts, White. It will be nice to hear what are the most popular teams between the top players in Japan. Here we have spiral/cable/sent or cyc, spiral/sent/bh, cable/storm/anti air, strider/doom/commando and magneto/storm/anti air(most psylocke). This is most WC. At EC you see some BH/Cable/Cyc magneto/cable/anti air and sentinel combinations as well. What are the most used by the top japanese players? And why do you think Sent and BH beats Cable? Here we thinks that these are 2 of the easier top tier fights for cable. Thanks a lot Posted by Nate X Grey on 04:05:2001 04:22 PM: .... I'm kinda shocked seeing how low Magneto is ranked. Does any Japanese player here care to explain this? I thought Japanese players were basically very good in execution and if so, should be utilising Mags various tricks insanely well. So why is he so low? I certainly find it hard to believe. Posted by Voodoo on 04:05:2001 05:42 PM: "Only AHVB is a threat." And yet I still get owned. Posted by white on 04:06:2001 02:05 AM: Japanese popular(strong) teams are... Spiral/Semtinel/CapCom Ironman/Sentinel/CapCom or Psylock Cable/Doom/Blackheart or Cyclops Spiral or Storm/Cable/Cyclops Strider/Doom/CapCom Doom/Ironman/CapCom or Cyclops or Cable Magneto/Storm/Cyclops or Psylock Blackheart/Sentinel/CapCom or Cyclops Japanese player use many kinds of character. Above example is some of teams which are considered strong generally. Some of them I myself don't think so good. Sometimes I'm scared by different team like Storm/Hulk/Tron or Morrigan/Sentinel-alpha/Blackheart. These teams seems to be scrub, but they have frightening power to kill a opponent in a moment. Such unique teams power often exceed our forcast. Well, I would like to explain the reason why Cable is beaten by Sentinel, Blackheart. Most of Japanese Cable player use him with Cyclops or Psylock for AHVB. The position far over him is his weakpoint. If Sentinel with CapCom-beta takes the position once, Cable will be crushed. Even He cannot hit an AHVB. If Cable calls antiair assist, Sentinel is not captured and can kill the assist. Cable's life run out immediately. BH's case, the best BH player ChiQ says BH is of advantage to cable. Actually, many Cable player hate his BH. His BH moves here and there, and so he cannot captured AHVB. Posted by DeathFromAbove on 04:06:2001 03:23 AM: May I ask a few questions of you, White? How are you, or other Japanese players managing to stay directly over Cable's head? How do you deal with Capcom assist? Or Cable superjumping and throwing grenades or roundhouses? And how do you do damage to Cable from up there? Is it just flying and calling assists? Thank you for your response. -DFA Posted by white on 04:06:2001 05:46 AM: OK,DFA. I will try to answer your quetion and give my tactic. First, Sentinel has to approach. Cable manages to keep Sentinel away with S.HP, SJ.HP, SJ.grenade, SJ.VB, AHVB and assists. First of all, Sentinel have to superjump. Cable's trap (S.HP> call Spiral-alpha> grenade, then repeat) is hard for Sentinel to superjump. If you succeed to superjump, Maybe Cable will shot SJ.HP and throw grenade or shot ViperBeam. Be careful not to loosen your guard. When Cable's bullet reach Sentinel, you should AG. then Cable begin to fall, but Sentinel stop in the air. As soon as Sentinel fall, you should fly and go up forward. If not Cable superjump back, Sentinel is safe and take the best position. So Cable will SJ back and aim to hit AHVB. You must expect the next Cable's move. When Cable SJ back, you should fly cancel. Then Cable is in the air, Sentinel is on the ground. And you run forward, you have done. When Cable is about to land, call CapCom and SJ.HK, you will take a best position. It is difficult to explain by the words. Many experiences and tight guard let you take best position. Second, what you should do when succeed to approach is keep the position. Basic paturn is call CapCom, SJ.HK, fly, J.HK, fly cancel, land, SJ.HK, fly, J.HK, call CapCom, fly cancel. This is quite annoying. After fly cancel, you sometimes should use C.LK to break Cable's guard, and connect to S.MK, RocketPunch, HSF. If some moves hit, you win. It is also difficult to explain. And really many experiences are required. If you have many HC meter, HSF> C.HP> call Spiral> RocketPunch> HSF, then repeat. The chip damage is about 50% with 5meter. Good luck! Posted by BlackShinobi on 04:06:2001 06:11 AM: How does Iron Man beat cable? Posted by Cybermitsu on 04:06:2001 07:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by BarrelO Morrigan better than Iceman? Juggernaut? Mega Man? Ruby Heart? Silver Samurai? Omega Red? Colossus? Now I definitely want to know how they play MvC2 in Japan. Yes... I can see... maybe even understand the thinking that goes behind most of the japanese tier. I can understand how Dhalsim is up there. He has good reach with his limbs and can runaway for LONG periods of time if need be. I just wanna know how you can rushdown with Dhalsim... For some reason I cannot see Dhalsim rushing down. My question is this: how do the players from Japan use Silver Samurai? -THE ONLY silver samurai PLAYER IN SO. CAL... I THINK... Posted by Renagade on 04:06:2001 08:20 AM: " Top tier [IMO] #1 Sentinel #2 Iron man #3 Spiral #4 Strider #5 Black heart #6 Dhalsim #7 Storm #8 Dr.Doom #9 Cyclops #10 Magneto #11 War machine #12 Cable #13 Morrigan " I must admit i'm surprised by these rankings. Either japanese style of play is radically diferrent than our own... or one hemisphere is playing a different game. ;-) Everyone has an opinion on who's good and who's not. But if everyone agreed... there would be a lot less discussion here in the threads. There are 3 problems/questions I have with these rankings. 1) Iron Man- While Iron Man is good... and is god of the infinite... his infinite will not kill a full health character before they fall out. So you have to throw in the proton cannon, which isn't the easiest thing in the world to do whilst maintaining the combo. Regardless, the infinite is still impractical against high level play. I want to know how Iron Man gets close to teams with sentinel/BH/doom/sprial and manages to land a psy, or a c. lk. I'd like to hear how Iron Man can stop storm runaway with A psylocke assist. How does Iron Man punish assists? The Proton cannon is nice, but it isn't safe if the point character blocks it. Anyhow, since psy is the best way to get the infinite, the team is at a 3rd character disadvantage since psy is so weak. All the experiance i can draw upon is that Iron Man is at a disadvantage against most of the top tier (save Cable and Cyclops)... but since he is in fact very good, he can compete well enough that skill is more of a determining factor than character. And why is War Machine so much lower?? He can do almost everything IM can, save for the fancy frilly stuff and the Proton Cannon ground combo. WM has better Matches against Mega Man and Ice Man than IM does, and still can do the infinite. What's the big difference?? 2)Cable. This goes pretty much w/o saying. I think Viscant rated him low, and that was #7. But I'll admit that Storm, Strider, Doom, Spiral, and Magneto have good matches against him. And these "good matches" take into account that one missed fierce, one wall climb, or (against Mags and Storm in particular) one AAA hit and 75%-100% of the life bar is gone. Not to mention him being on point period makes calling assists very, very risky. But except for those five characters (and WM and IM) Cable beats the other characters in the game for free, pretty much. Since more often you see Commando assists with Cable, Sent can't use the strategy you detailed. BH can't use Inferno->HOD aginst cable. And BH can be brought down by Captain Commando, or well placed SJ or a grenade. I think the way the top tier in the US is looking now is in repect to Cable, period. Where a character stands is how they stack up to him. Ruby Heart is a great character, and does real well against Sentinel, but her weakness to cable puts her 2nd tier. Since sentinel does so well against the rest of the top tier save Cable... he gets a nod. Same with BH. My main concern here is that Cyclops is rated OVER cable. Now, while Cyke's assist is better than Cable's, Cable's aren't worthless. Cyke has the same weaknesses as Cable, and then some. Cyclops can't beat Mags, Storm, Spiral, Sentinel, Doom, etc. he can compete and do well if he had the advantage going in. They share almost all of their basic moves. You say Cable is worthless without AHVB, Cable minus AHVB = Cyclops (cyclone kick to SOB..Cyke's best combo, does a little more than sk, mk, rh, HVB does) Hating on Cable is fun.... but one has to fear a character that often kills 2 members of your team at once. 3)Morrigan. I just can't see what she can do to a Sent/BH especially, or even more basic, Cable/AAA. As well as any spiral team, Strider/Doom, or magneto. I just dont see SJ up soulfist or landing a darkness illusion combo as the solution to the problems these characters give her. Her moves have horrid lag, she takes loads of damage, and her best combos require an assist to hit... impractical at best. She can't really punish assists since the soul eraser takes all day to start and end. This is all my opinion. The fact that you are a better player than I am is obvious. Just alot of these rankings go against what I've been seeing the past few months.. and i'd like to know what I haven't been seeing, if in fact i've missed something. Thanks for posting, and for being so polite and considerate to us. Posted by *Dp on 04:06:2001 08:40 AM: "WM has better Matches against Mega Man and Ice Man than IM does, and still can do the infinite. What's the big difference??" Good point, WM overall has better matches than IM you have to remember that Tiers are based on matches and WM has better one than IM with the two characters above.....also lot's of people say "Well one reason IM is better is because he has style" Style has just about nothing to do with wining if anything, WM has better style than IM due to him not sounding like a fruit, unlike IM who sounds like a fag while he's doing the infinite.Also white could you tell us the infinite set-ups that you guys use? Thanks Posted by white on 04:06:2001 01:13 PM: Silver Samurai: He is close to top tier. I guess his best team is SS/Doom/Cyclops. J.HK with call Cyclops can break crouching guard and make opportunities to connect to lightening sword super. And Doom rock assist and star super can chip a lot. His throw in the air is quite good. Good SS player is good at throwing in the air. The only weak point is his low mobility. IM and WM: WM's weak points are C.LK which is much slower than IM, Bombs speed which is not good for running after and S.HK which is slower than IM. First point is too serious for IM player. IM's S.HK and C.LK is very quick. It is good for beginning of match. He hae best choice to kill at the beginning of match if opponent do anything. Moreover IM's HC is better than WM's and IM-alpha assist is better. They have many other difference, but I think IM is much better than WM. against keepaway or runaway: IM has good matches against Storm, Sentinel, BH, Doom and so on. Especially He is of great advantage to Cable IMO. Bomb shower is quite safe, and run after it, his air dash and throwig can break Cable's guard. When a move hits, you win. I can't express well, anyway these matches are quite exciting. I manage to send a competition tape to USA in this month. Cyclops: He is great character. Espesially his defence is. I think he has good matches against almost top character. I'm sure the quality of Cyclops in Japan is better than other country. He is not an assist character. He is a great fighter indeed. Thank you for replying and your gentleness. Posted by Yarouze on 04:06:2001 05:13 PM: DP - white showed us the setups already white- I'll try those, and ending with the proton cannon should be really disguesting well I still like my charlie/BH/doom or Anakaris/BH/Cable, but I guess I'm more of the abstract player, well if I can win, using characters that I think are cool thats how I play, well thats bout it, just can't wait to see the Japanese players in action Posted by Zero on 04:06:2001 05:41 PM: quote: Originally posted by white Second, what you should do when succeed to approach is keep the position. Basic paturn is call CapCom, SJ.HK, fly, J.HK, fly cancel, land, SJ.HK, fly, J.HK, call CapCom, fly cancel. This is quite annoying. After fly cancel, you sometimes should use C.LK to break Cable's guard, and connect to S.MK, RocketPunch, HSF. If some moves hit, you win. It is also difficult to explain. And really many experiences are required. If you have many HC meter, HSF> C.HP> call Spiral> RocketPunch> HSF, then repeat. The chip damage is about 50% with 5meter. Good luck! This pattern doesn't look good in Zero's eyes. What if Cable has Cyclops? Unless this pattern keeps Cable in infinate block stun, what would stop Cable from calling Cyclops' AAA assist to nail CapCom and Sentinal? Even if Cyclops doesn't hit Sentinal (Sentinal may fly back, excpecting this), Cable is still free and can continue to terrorize Sentinal. Maybe the movies will shed some light, but for now, Zero doesn't see Sentinal beating Cable. Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:06:2001 06:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by white Silver Samurai: He is close to top tier. I guess his best team is SS/Doom/Cyclops. J.HK with call Cyclops can break crouching guard and make opportunities to connect to lightening sword super. And Doom rock assist and star super can chip a lot. His throw in the air is quite good. Good SS player is good at throwing in the air. The only weak point is his low mobility. IM and WM: WM's weak points are C.LK which is much slower than IM, Bombs speed which is not good for running after and S.HK which is slower than IM. First point is too serious for IM player. IM's S.HK and C.LK is very quick. It is good for beginning of match. He hae best choice to kill at the beginning of match if opponent do anything. Moreover IM's HC is better than WM's and IM-alpha assist is better. They have many other difference, but I think IM is much better than WM. against keepaway or runaway: IM has good matches against Storm, Sentinel, BH, Doom and so on. Especially He is of great advantage to Cable IMO. Bomb shower is quite safe, and run after it, his air dash and throwig can break Cable's guard. When a move hits, you win. I can't express well, anyway these matches are quite exciting. I manage to send a competition tape to USA in this month. Cyclops: He is great character. Espesially his defence is. I think he has good matches against almost top character. I'm sure the quality of Cyclops in Japan is better than other country. He is not an assist character. He is a great fighter indeed. Thank you for replying and your gentleness. War Machine: I've always played IM and WM both, and even though I still think IM is better, I still play WM more. There are four basic reasons: 1.) Even though his attacks are slower, it's not like IM's attacks are all that fast anyway. With IM/WM, you don't win matches because of the speed of your attacks more than you will win because you can mix people up a lot and both can do that. 2.) WMs Crouching Fierce is a low beam and it is his major tool for fighting against Spiral traps. If you C.Fierce, it will take out both of the low knives she throws at you and you'll be crouching so the mid and high knives will all pass over head. You can also shoot a Jab-Shoulder Cannon out to hit her while she is summoning more knives and you will only get hit by one or two knives that are coming toward you and you get to guard again. 3.) His War Destroyer is so good at stopping people that super jump and throw things down at you. Characters like Anakaris, IM, Blackheart, etc. all have to worry about being up there. It is not always good for damage, but it's good for control. And if you want to you DHC to someone like Storm for more damage 4.) The speed of WMs Smart Bombs are faster than IM, so if you super jump up and air dash up to the top of the screen (which is the safest spot away from characters like Cable) and do a smart bomb, they will land before you get there. You can fly, air dash and call a helper very safely after the smart bombs because your opponent will be blocking while you do it. With IM, his bombs are slower and if you do the same pattern, you'll land before your bombs do. If you don't air dash up, it works a little hetter but you are not in a very safe position. The two reasons I still think IM is better are his Proton Cannon (major reason) and I don't think WM has as many infinite set-ups as IM does. But, I still play WM more for a personal choice and because I think he has a really good fight against Spiral and a better fight against Cable. I think I'm the only one that still plays WM though. Another quick question: #1 C.LK> C.MP> SJ.(LP> air dash LP> upper HP)> NJ.(LP> MP> MK> uHP) *10> S.HP> ProtonCannon I was trying this earlier today. It seemed very difficult. The way it looks is that you do the C.MP, super jump cancel it and immediately hit Jab on the way up and Air dash with another jab? Also, I can invision this working with a straight air dash or is it a down-forward air dash? Posted by cyclops34 on 04:06:2001 06:26 PM: white white who do u urself use as a team and how do u think u will do against alex and duc who are predicted to win do u think u have a good chance against ducs team shoto or his magneto storm psylocke team that he's been using recently Posted by Bruton on 04:06:2001 07:45 PM: Omigod, I didn't read the other post on those other infinite setups, I feel so scrubby. That C.MP man.SJ one sounds very cool. *Hangs head in shame* Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:06:2001 08:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Zero This pattern doesn't look good in Zero's eyes. What if Cable has Cyclops? Unless this pattern keeps Cable in infinate block stun, what would stop Cable from calling Cyclops' AAA assist to nail CapCom and Sentinal? Even if Cyclops doesn't hit Sentinal (Sentinal may fly back, excpecting this), Cable is still free and can continue to terrorize Sentinal. Maybe the movies will shed some light, but for now, Zero doesn't see Sentinal beating Cable. Actually, you can see how this looks in the SRK vids. I know Duc did the basic patter in the match with Nyte. He didn't have commando, but he did repeated SJ.Roundhouse XX flight, F.Roundhouse XX unfly. If Sentinel flys forward instead of back, Cyke will go past him and Sent will still be in a good position to stomp. You just have to be patient and expect Cyke to come out. You know he's there, you know he's coming, so be ready. Expect him as soon as he can be called. Most people will just mash on the assist button and not try to trick you. That's where you have the advantage. IMO, it only works really good when you're in the corner. And it doesn't work too well against other AAA besides Cyke. Psylocke stops it and I think maybe Ken, Cammy, and Commando might as well. It is a very solid tactic though. But, a lot of top players here expect it and don't let Sentinel corner them. It's still rough though. Posted by Six-Armed on 04:06:2001 10:22 PM: Im not surprised that Iron Man is ranked so high. Even with the absence of his infinite he's quite a threat. He can give Cable heap of trouble and he has ability to beat Storm and Spiral as well. I still think he has trouble against Magneto, who should be ranked way higher than he is both on Japanese and US ranking. Im also surprised that Sentinal is ranked above Magneto in both places. I think Sentinal is definitely top 5 (3rd behind Magneto and Spiral / Storm). Posted by Renagade on 04:07:2001 12:12 AM: Fluffy, I agree with you about War Machine. His wider variety of moves is good to have in certain situations... IM is still better of course... just that War Machine isn't worthless. With IM trying to get that low short off into an infinite... it's not as easy as it sounds. Magneto has a hard time landing that low short in the beginning of a match when all the AAA's are still alive, and Mags has many more tools to acheive that. I dont think Iron Man would fare very well. Also, Iron Man best course of action against some of the top tier (SJ, smart bombs, fly, assist, etc) almost removes the infinite from consideration... White, I don't doubt that cyclops is a good character, i just don't see how he's better than Cable. They share the same weaknesses (since all of their normals are the same) and so the same bad fights. Cyclops doesn't have a guard break, or the many things AHVBx3 gives cable (assist kills, 100% damage, and 1 frame startup for retaliation). Cyclops can't trap (or whatever you call cable's attempt at it) You are right that a fly cancel Sentinel can give Cable some big problems... but if cable has almost any good AAA sides Cyke... Sentinel can't be directly above him. Thanks for the dialogue. I'd love to see the competition videos from Japan. Posted by white on 04:07:2001 01:24 AM: OK, I will make a competition tape. I will play with my friend who is one of top players in Japan. I use Spiral/Sentinel/CapCom team or Dhalsim/Ironman/Cyclops, My friend use Cable/Storm/Cyc as main, and we use many of other characters. Sorry, I am busy now, My next reply will be tomorrow night in Japan. See you again. Posted by Cybermitsu on 04:07:2001 02:00 AM: quote: Originally posted by white Silver Samurai: He is close to top tier. I guess his best team is SS/Doom/Cyclops. J.HK with call Cyclops can break crouching guard and make opportunities to connect to lightening sword super. And Doom rock assist and star super can chip a lot. His throw in the air is quite good. Good SS player is good at throwing in the air. The only weak point is his low mobility... ...Thank you for replying and your gentleness. Wow... white came to a similar conclusion to Viscant with the whole SS thing. Thanks for your advice. It's some ideas and theories that I already had but just thought it was nuts. BTW, your welcome... Posted by KiyokiX on 04:07:2001 03:09 AM: concerning Morrigan's validity as top tier, I just realized that she is definitely a force to be reckoned with. There is this one guy at my arcade who I usually own every time I play him with my Mag/Storm/Psy team, but whenever he picks Morrigan he nearly kills me quite often. Her combos ending in the darkness illusion are powerful, and she has a great confusing game using her airdashes, air soul fists and the air d.hk stab-stomp move. Whenever I try to rush him down with mags, he calls an assist, superjumps and starts raining soul fists down or if i am underneath him he does that stomp move and cancels that into another soul fists when i try to catch him in the lag-bounce after she connects. She slowly wears me down waiting for the opportunity to land a darkness illusion combo. I'm not sure how they play her in Japan, but this guy gives me a heck of a lot of trouble when hew plays morrigan. Posted by doombh on 04:07:2001 03:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by white Cyclops: He is great character. Espesially his defence is. I think he has good matches against almost top character. I'm sure the quality of Cyclops in Japan is better than other country. He is not an assist character. He is a great fighter indeed. Thank you for replying and your gentleness. White, could you explain more about playing Cyclops on point? I use him mostly as an assist. When he's on point I try to sj. roundhouse a lot to build meter and chip with Mega Optic Blast. Or go to the combo into SOB. If Spiral or Storm are still on my team, I try to do crossups with the assists. Until now, this wasn't enough to give me good fights against top tiers , so I'm looking for more advice. Thanks a lot. Posted by KungfuJoe on 04:07:2001 03:22 AM: this is very interesting I can see the differencebetween japan and america Posted by State of Nature on 04:07:2001 03:56 AM: Hi White. If you DO make a competition tape of Japanese players, I think I speak for many people here when I ask you make a tape of your team with Dhalsim on point. We see a lot of Spiral here, but hardly any dhalsim. Also, Morrigan definitely isn't that bad. I've seen Justin Wong toy around with her, and he did real well. Of course, that could mean nothing, cause he does real well with anybody. Posted by HyperViperSniper on 04:07:2001 04:25 AM: Storm should be closer to number one.. Dhalsim is not a better character than storm and Iron Man is okay..but still NOT better than Storm.. If you break down Storms moves and keepaway...she can stay away from ANYONE as long as she wants.. the only people that can really get her outta the air when she is running things is either Capcom or Blackheart.. Simply because BlackHearts ICE is full Screen and Capcoms Corridor and Sword Super are full screen..otherwise she owns EVERYONE else... Beware her in tourneys..with the right assists she can tackle almost anyone.. HVS Posted by Xecutioner on 04:07:2001 05:47 AM: Hey White let me start by saying its going to be great facing and the rest of japan's top player. now on to my questions: Was u surprised that team usa was so good and did u adapt any of their stats and tactics? What r liquid metal's top teams? can chiQ's bh survive well on its own? does anybody over there use team shoto? Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:07:2001 12:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by doombh White, could you explain more about playing Cyclops on point? I use him mostly as an assist. When he's on point I try to sj. roundhouse a lot to build meter and chip with Mega Optic Blast. Or go to the combo into SOB. If Spiral or Storm are still on my team, I try to do crossups with the assists. Until now, this wasn't enough to give me good fights against top tiers , so I'm looking for more advice. Thanks a lot. Cyclops is a really good character and is highly under-rated as a point in US. Most people use him primarily as an assist, which means when he comes into a fight, he comes in last with no assists. That alone gives him a disadvantage against a lot of characters, especially if they still have two. Sometimes it doesn't even involve the amount of life they have, just that there are two of them. A lot of one on one fights are difficult for Cyke, but two on ones are even worse. The high points for Cyke are mainly his versatility. 1.) He has mad rushdown games. He has good priority on his attacks like S.Short and he is in what Viscant calls the "random roundhouse family" which basically means his roundhouse is a fairly safe move to use not to mention also good for punishing assists. Cyclone Kick is also a great attack as it allows him to punish people trying to coutner his attacks with low attacks and also has defensive uses. It goes over low attacks to hit people, so if someone is trying to counter poke, this will hit them. If they dash at you, you can use it as a fairly safe defensive move. It's recovery isn't bad and you can cancel into SOB if it hits. 2.) His throws are just awesome. He has the best basic throw in the game (DB+Roundhouse). If you haven't noticed, there is a game engine feature that won't let you throw out of a dash. However, you can override this by crouching, which takes you out of the dashing state (basics of wave-dashing). Since his DB+Roundhouse throw requires you to crouch to do it, you basically get to dash up and throw someone. Most other characters can do something similar to this, but they have to reach a full crouch state before they can return to standing and throw. You can also work this same type of throwing tactic with command throws, like all of the old Strong button throws that are all QCB+Fierce motions. Off of the top of my head, I know Cyke and Dhalsim have those and they are useful. Just remember that you can't throw while the other person is in block stun, so you can't call a helper and make them block and throw while they are blocking. Game engine doesn't work that way. 3.) He also has good keep-away games with his optic bullet. It is so hard for non-top tier characters to get around repeated optic bullets and assists. 4.) He can punish from full screen with Jab-Optic Blast XX Super Optic Blast. This is very fast and will punish a lot of attacks. It's almost AHVB speed, and in fact I've seen this hit BH after his HOD recovery like AHVB does. 5.) Of course, there's his anti-air assist. But more than just the AHVB setups, the infinite setups, the fact that nearly every character can do an air combo if he hits, and the fact that he beats Doom AAA, you also get the Gene Splice if you do a variable counter, and you can easily cancel that into a super if it hits to do additional damage. Ex. you have Cable/Storm/Cyke. You want to get Cable out and save him for later. The other person attacks you, you variable counter to cyke, who hits, and cancel into a Super Optic Blast aimed up. Then, you DHC to Hail Storm with Storm (she is still second) which allows you to run away with Storm and build meter. Your order is now Storm/Cable/Cyke. As the fight progresses, if Storm dies, you have Cable next and hopefully some meter to work with. 6.) MOB and SOB both are decent chippers. MOB will do more chip damage, but SOB has less recovery. Both aren't safe to chip Cable, but I can't think of any other character that can punish him for doing it, at least from full screen. 7.) S.J.Roundhouse over and over again to build meter. Double jump too. Repeat until you have the desired amount of meter. Doesn't work too well against BH and Commando assists though, and Storm can be a problem. 8.) Cyclops has the mobility to get just about anywhere on the screen. Combining his double jump and his beams, he can get to the top of the screen fairly well and can stop Storm and Dhalsim runaway strategies. Ok, he may not stop them, but him being there is threat enough at times to make people nervous. 9.) This may sound like it has already been covered, but his air attacks are too good. His J.roundhouse has such high priority when going air to air. His J.D.Roundhouse is also a high priority move when going air to ground or just hitting someone who is below you. He owns Sentinel without Blackheart for those two moves alone, for which Sentinel has no real answer. 10.) This is not major, but he does have the re-launching infinite that is character specific to Cable, Doom, Tronne, and Anakaris. But, it works on Cable and Doom, both top tier, and he can guard break straight into his infinite on them. Overall, I still think Cyke is a very versatile character with a lot of undiscovered potential. He does have a lot of matches that are almost literally free wins if you're an experienced Cyke player. The only problem is most people haven't developed their Cyclops beyond being able to build meter, chip, and try not to die when you have a lead. He is really good and a lot of people don't see that. Posted by EvilCapAmerica on 04:07:2001 01:38 PM: Id i could ask you something White i would like to know what the japanese teams thinks that the Americans biggest weaknesses are and what they excel in that the US team doesnt Posted by cyclops34 on 04:07:2001 09:46 PM: white wat are some strats u use wen using ur team of dhalsim cyclops and iron man wat assists do u use for each character and how well do u think u'll do wen u enter b5 Posted by SM on 04:07:2001 10:52 PM: Morrigan imo is very good bcos she has a beam super, whic is important for any character. her air dashes and ground dashes r fast and its very easy 2 combo wit her. DI does alot of damage and does soul eraser. If japanese players r usin her, they know wat their doing. She should b in top tier. Posted by Ron on 04:08:2001 04:33 AM: quote: Originally posted by white The top characters are frequently changing. Someone think Cable is the strongest, or someone said Storm is the best. So many men, so many minds. I would like to let you know circumstance of the competition in Japan. Top tier [IMO] #1 Sentinel #2 Iron man #3 Spiral #4 Strider #5 Black heart #6 Dhalsim #7 Storm #8 Dr.Doom #9 Cyclops #10 Magneto #11 War machine #12 Cable #13 Morrigan Explanation Sentinel: I think the best character is Sentinel. Spiral/Sentinel/CapCom team is one of the best teams. He has some hard character, but CapCom-beta assist unable him to beat them and great trap with Spiral-alpha assist is much better than that with BH-beta. Moreover Sentinel-ganma assist strengthen the Spiral's knife trap. Iron man: He is #2. Japanese good Ironman player can start infinite combos from any situation. If he wins a mind game, he can kill a character and aim to kill next character with guard break infinite combo. His various moves make the opportunity for infinite combos. DHC into proton cannon is provide his team deadly combo. He is good at close fight and also can keep away. Spiral: Need not to explain. Strider: His health is too bad, but he has best trap. Black heart: Japanese great player [ChiQ Sodom] use him so well. His team BH/Anakaris/Sonson is wonderful! Dhalsim: He has great capability. You will see him in B5. Storm: Need not to explain. Dr.Doom: Need not to explain. Cyclops: Need not to explain. Magneto: He is not good at keep away game. Rush down and combos are good. War machine: Similar to Iron man. But Iron man is better. Cable: He has many weak points. First, he have too many hard characters. Second, his mobility is too bad. Third, he need many HC meter to kill the opponents. He is good at only keep away fight. Morrigan: She have good mobility, ability to break guard, deady HC. She is much stronger than you think. First I'd just like to say hi to 'white' and everyone else on this thread. Now..white, I don't play MvC2 my self, I do however get a chance to see tourney level players (in this game) go at it regularly. My game is Third Strike though. So, I was wondering if you thought any of the top Third Strike players over there in Japan would also be willing to come in and post there views on it. I'm dying to hear how the game is played over there. Because other than the statistical accounts of the USA vs Japan tourney, Third Strike Japanese play is still a mystery to me. Posted by Six-Armed on 04:08:2001 05:51 PM: Hey RON!! hahaha....man LONG ASS TIME no see or talk man. Dude, I was at the tourney last night, I didn't see you. Oh well. I see your still trying to improve your TS skillz! Hahahaha...dude, next time you should enter the UP TS tourney man, your Yun's really good. Anyways, This is Roger in case you dont know...hehe..peace out and hope to see you soon bro. Later. Posted by BlackShinobi on 04:08:2001 08:46 PM: I've never seen this many philly people reply to a thread that eric didn't start. Posted by REALPLAYER on 04:09:2001 01:59 AM: This thread is a bad idea for the Japanese players to be exposing all their tactics before B5. Now the American players can test these teams out to find their weaknesses. American players could lose just on sheer inexperience with these teams. Posted by NerenatwaH on 04:09:2001 02:18 AM: You could say the same for us posting those tourney vids. Anyways, I can't wait to see what the MvC2 tourney at B5 will be like. Posted by Wind on 04:09:2001 06:31 AM: white, Hope to see many vids of you guys playing MvC2 ! Posted by LastGod VT on 04:09:2001 06:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by NerenatwaH You could say the same for us posting those tourney vids. Anyways, I can't wait to see what the MvC2 tourney at B5 will be like. exactly, dont you think that Japan is FULLY aware of our capabilities? Posted by Viscant on 04:09:2001 10:04 AM: First off I would like to thank white for his informative posts on how the game is played in Japan. I think many people over reacted to what happened at the Japan v. USA tournament in MvC2; everyone who I talked to said that even though the US was better then, it was close. Also, I am glad to see that on a lot of areas, we see eye to eye. I've always said that the top 15 or 16 characters in MvC2 are very close to each other and can all compete with each other. Aside from Morrigan being very high on his list and not on mine, we're mentioning the same characters with many of the same strategies being used. I must say though, I am intrigued at a couple of the characters mentioned. Over here, Dhalsim is used mainly as a Storm or Cable counter (I think he does very well against Magneto too, but people are hesitant to use him in that fight), I would like to hear more about what Dhalsim can do against a good Sentinel or Dr.Doom or against a Commando user. Those matchups are what is keeping him from being ranked any higher in my view (I have him roughly around 13-14). Also, with Morrigan there is a lot I think the US has to learn about her too. I've been playing with her for a little while and I know that she has some heavy damaging combos and her jumping jab is one of the best normals in the game, but I personally don't see her as a stable enough character to fight against some of the main characters in the game. One more question, if it is not too much trouble. I would also like to know how much Captain Commando is being used in Japan. One of the things that came to my mind when looking at the rankings listed was that Captain Commando seemed to do very well against almost all of the top 10 except for Dr.Doom, Spiral and Storm. Over here, we regard Captain Commando as a sure counter character to Dhalsim, Sentinel, Blackheart, Iron Man, etc. Thank you again, white, for your insight. It's always nice to see that a game we play a lot of over here is starting to get more play on the other side. I look forward to seeing you at B5. --Jay Snyder Le Viscant Posted by white on 04:09:2001 02:18 PM: First, I have to apologize to you for having said some mistakes. Considering many things, Morrigan cannot be top tier. But I think she is good and around 16-20. I often change my mind, please don't believe all the thing that I say. I am just a player. BTW, Japanese competitive movies will be opened to you guys soon. To tell the truth, I want not to tell you many tactics and straregies for B5. I would like you to see Japanese competition and give us many advices. Anyway, many things will be cleared. CapCom: I think he is the most important part of some best teams. I use him for long time. His assist is great, He is my lifeline. My tactics are based on him. As a character, he is not bad. I said Dhalsim/Ironman/Cyc is the best Dhalsim team, but now I think Dhalsim/Ironman/CapCom is better. Anyway, he has the greatest antiair indeed. Posted by white on 04:09:2001 02:42 PM: Well, CapCom is a counter character against almost top character. But I made the ranking on the assumption that almost characters have CapCom antiair. Storm/CapCom is hard for Sentinel, but Sentinl/CapCom can beat Storm/CapCom. Considering the effect of assists, CapCom is top tier. Thank you for replying, If you have a question of character, don't hesitant to ask. I will answer as possible. Posted by psx2000 on 04:09:2001 03:06 PM: yes any idea how long till we see some footage of you guys play? any chance we can get a little more detailed dhalsim strats listed? Thanks for your time. Posted by cyclops34 on 04:09:2001 03:26 PM: white wat assist do you use when you pick dhalsim on ur team and also wat assists do you use for cyclops and iron man Posted by CgHuReInS on 04:09:2001 03:43 PM: quote: Originally posted by psx2000 yes any idea how long till we see some footage of you guys play? If you look at some other threads, Liquidmetal just gave John Choi some game footage (a match using Dhalsim!), and it should be posted on SRK later in the week or something. The thread is titled "hi", so I can imagine a lot of people overlooked it. Posted by XMetal on 04:09:2001 04:00 PM: quote: Originally posted by psx2000 yes any idea how long till we see some footage of you guys play? any chance we can get a little more detailed dhalsim strats listed? Thanks for your time. yeah choi said in another post that they should be up soon. hopefully sometime this week. at any rate, it should be pretty soon Posted by TimeFlip on 04:09:2001 07:36 PM: I tried playing Morrigan this weekend. She got totally wrecked by Magneto/Capcom. Posted by powermachine on 04:10:2001 03:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL 10.) This is not major, but he does have the re-launching infinite that is character specific to Cable, Doom, Tronne, and Anakaris. But, it works on Cable and Doom, both top tier, and he can guard break straight into his infinite on them. Actually, I read in another thread that Cyclops infinite can works well against all top tiers , except Sent and BH(while it's still possible) . I think it was kdcmarvel or viscant who explained about the inf Posted by NanoBoi on 04:12:2001 12:21 AM: Hi White, i'm trying to do your infinite for iron man (d+jp, d+jp, superjump jp, airdash jp, up fierce...and so on) but i having trouble with the superjumping part. Is there a specific time i should start doing the motion to super jump? It would help if you can give me a small explanation about this specific part. ARiGaToU , Thanks Posted by Mr. SmArTy on 04:12:2001 03:13 AM: hey white, I'm trying to learn the way the japanese start the infinite with iron man with just c.lk, c.mp, Superjump, sj.jab, dash, sj.jab, u.firece, infinite. I'm having a a problem on how to superjump after the c.mp. Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:12:2001 04:21 AM: You have to cancel it pretty fast. You have to use the Super Jump cancel, the same property that goes into AHVB. Just let the joystick come back to neutral and do a manual SJ, Jab (don't hold joystick) PP air dash, Jab, U.Fierce. Posted by Mr. SmArTy on 04:12:2001 04:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL You have to cancel it pretty fast. You have to use the Super Jump cancel, the same property that goes into AHVB. Just let the joystick come back to neutral and do a manual SJ, Jab (don't hold joystick) PP air dash, Jab, U.Fierce. Are you saying c.mp, tiger knee motion, jab, dash, jab, U.fierce? Posted by CoLoNeL on 04:12:2001 05:38 AM: yeah.... i have the same problem too.... maybe you have to do c.mp into reverse tiger knee motion into sj.jab etc... I still have no idea how to really do it. Everytime i try to superjump cancel from c.mp... i either get the jump too late.. wont combo.. or just get a tigerknee unibeam. So please tell me if you do it with the tiger knee method or not. Is there some visual/timing clue to indicate when to superjump cancel? Posted by FluffyXXL on 04:12:2001 06:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by Mr. SmArTy Are you saying c.mp, tiger knee motion, jab, dash, jab, U.fierce? No, same principle, not same execution. for the SJ, let it go back to neutral, manually SJ with down, up, then jab on the way up, right as you leave the ground, cancel it with a straight dash, and then U.fierce. you don't have to hold any direction while doing jab, air dash, jab, until you get to the u.fierce. Posted by CykoClops on 04:14:2001 11:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Cyclops is a really good character and is highly under-rated as a point in US. Most people use him primarily as an assist, which means when he comes into a fight, he comes in last with no assists. That alone gives him a disadvantage against a lot of characters, especially if they still have two. Sometimes it doesn't even involve the amount of life they have, just that there are two of them. A lot of one on one fights are difficult for Cyke, but two on ones are even worse. The high points for Cyke are mainly his versatility. 1.) He has mad rushdown games. He has good priority on his attacks like S.Short and he is in what Viscant calls the "random roundhouse family" which basically means his roundhouse is a fairly safe move to use not to mention also good for punishing assists. Cyclone Kick is also a great attack as it allows him to punish people trying to coutner his attacks with low attacks and also has defensive uses. It goes over low attacks to hit people, so if someone is trying to counter poke, this will hit them. If they dash at you, you can use it as a fairly safe defensive move. It's recovery isn't bad and you can cancel into SOB if it hits. 2.) His throws are just awesome. He has the best basic throw in the game (DB+Roundhouse). If you haven't noticed, there is a game engine feature that won't let you throw out of a dash. However, you can override this by crouching, which takes you out of the dashing state (basics of wave-dashing). Since his DB+Roundhouse throw requires you to crouch to do it, you basically get to dash up and throw someone. Most other characters can do something similar to this, but they have to reach a full crouch state before they can return to standing and throw. You can also work this same type of throwing tactic with command throws, like all of the old Strong button throws that are all QCB+Fierce motions. Off of the top of my head, I know Cyke and Dhalsim have those and they are useful. Just remember that you can't throw while the other person is in block stun, so you can't call a helper and make them block and throw while they are blocking. Game engine doesn't work that way. 3.) He also has good keep-away games with his optic bullet. It is so hard for non-top tier characters to get around repeated optic bullets and assists. 4.) He can punish from full screen with Jab-Optic Blast XX Super Optic Blast. This is very fast and will punish a lot of attacks. It's almost AHVB speed, and in fact I've seen this hit BH after his HOD recovery like AHVB does. 5.) Of course, there's his anti-air assist. But more than just the AHVB setups, the infinite setups, the fact that nearly every character can do an air combo if he hits, and the fact that he beats Doom AAA, you also get the Gene Splice if you do a variable counter, and you can easily cancel that into a super if it hits to do additional damage. Ex. you have Cable/Storm/Cyke. You want to get Cable out and save him for later. The other person attacks you, you variable counter to cyke, who hits, and cancel into a Super Optic Blast aimed up. Then, you DHC to Hail Storm with Storm (she is still second) which allows you to run away with Storm and build meter. Your order is now Storm/Cable/Cyke. As the fight progresses, if Storm dies, you have Cable next and hopefully some meter to work with. 6.) MOB and SOB both are decent chippers. MOB will do more chip damage, but SOB has less recovery. Both aren't safe to chip Cable, but I can't think of any other character that can punish him for doing it, at least from full screen. 7.) S.J.Roundhouse over and over again to build meter. Double jump too. Repeat until you have the desired amount of meter. Doesn't work too well against BH and Commando assists though, and Storm can be a problem. 8.) Cyclops has the mobility to get just about anywhere on the screen. Combining his double jump and his beams, he can get to the top of the screen fairly well and can stop Storm and Dhalsim runaway strategies. Ok, he may not stop them, but him being there is threat enough at times to make people nervous. 9.) This may sound like it has already been covered, but his air attacks are too good. His J.roundhouse has such high priority when going air to air. His J.D.Roundhouse is also a high priority move when going air to ground or just hitting someone who is below you. He owns Sentinel without Blackheart for those two moves alone, for which Sentinel has no real answer. 10.) This is not major, but he does have the re-launching infinite that is character specific to Cable, Doom, Tronne, and Anakaris. But, it works on Cable and Doom, both top tier, and he can guard break straight into his infinite on them. Overall, I still think Cyke is a very versatile character with a lot of undiscovered potential. He does have a lot of matches that are almost literally free wins if you're an experienced Cyke player. The only problem is most people haven't developed their Cyclops beyond being able to build meter, chip, and try not to die when you have a lead. He is really good and a lot of people don't see that. couldn't have said it better myself Posted by color_wolf on 04:14:2001 12:29 PM: white: im very curious to know how japanese ironman/dhalsim teams deal with traps, in particular sentinel/cable-b/bh and spiral/sent/bh traps...does ironman not hit a kind of wall from the drones/bh assist? does he take the hit and then lead in an attack with bombs? or perhaps push-block the bh assist?... at the same time, how would you deal with a doom/cable-b/bh trap? Posted by FFRonin on 04:15:2001 11:43 AM: Morrigan has an air dash combo to pressure the opponent, sorta like what the computer does w/ Storm and Magneto. Morrigan can do the same thing. It's hard to combo in the super tho but if you can land a fierce, throw out a Soul Fist into the Darkness Illusion. Plus she has an infinite but only in the corner. Posted by BiGKeN on 04:17:2001 12:03 AM: my opinions...japanese ironmans are very good...but I honestly do not think they will do well in america. First off that cable spiral cyclops was one of the poorest ive seen...lots of missed ahvb opportunities and alot of strange moves....ahvbing after a grenade..? wats that all about...I have a feeling the japanese will get wrecked by the top players in america's cables just because it doesnt seem from the videos they have played against good cables...just my opinions on everything...l8rz Posted by Pimpwitagun on 04:18:2001 09:25 AM: cool, wish i could watch u Japanese dudes play... in fact i wish i could watch all u cali/mainland dudes play. We still suck down here. Only get good from reading stuff off the internet (which i finally decided to do since i was getting owned by dudes i have better raw talent then just cause they got more info off the net than i had known about) All times are GMT. The time now is 01:06 AM. 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